45 acp damage human body

While each of them has no direct bearing on incapacitation, they must all be considered. Source: I can buy that. The FBI subsequently transitioned from revolvers to semi auto .40 caliber handguns with S&W .40 caliber bullets (a slightly shorter version of the 10mm round). How about that..most people shot by handguns survive. The .223 weighs in at 55 grains, while the .22 is usually 45 grains or smaller. I like how the author notes that the accuracy analogy is nonsense, thats true. Affiliate Disclosure-Terms of Use-Privacy Policy - Returns & Refunds - Shipping & Delivery - Affiliates, This story of a Chicago-suburb police officer. knows the sound of a 9m they may say o well Ill chance it but a 40 cal. The 45 deer had busted bones and bullets still within them. I also could not afford the astronomical price (astronomical in my current budget) shops are now asking for a 4 inch Ruger Redhawk. quick defense trigger and has an extended 17rnd clip. I guarantee with proper shot placement, either round will do. Im no expert by the way but, I know that said air resistance on the nose of the bullet is NOT the predominate factor in any ballistics array. In a statement, the FBI said he used a modified an SKS , the predecessor to the AK-47 which shoots the same bullets. well lets fac the facts ere during th banna war the marines choose the 45 acp end of story. I only want to pull the trigger 1-3 times. Which is better? The Human Torso Test. Enter https://www.police1.com/ and click OK. Train! Moreover, law enforcement shootings typically result in only one or two solid torso hits on adversaries. end of discussion. Hi, I have both. You probably wont feel as much pain in your hands or joints when the rounds go off as when youre practicing on the range. But this doesnt mean that a 22 rimfire is the best caliber or even a good choice for head shots. After the FBI, he served as a Massachusetts Deputy Inspector Generaland is currently a deputy sheriff for Plymouth County, Massachusetts. Asking that question around gun owners is like bringing up religion or politics at a party. .45 ACP Damage Body Shots Head Shots Sounds Firing (9mm) Firing (.45 ACP) Reloading Swapping To Rarity The Vector is a rare SMG that spawns mainly in Hatchet Cases in the Hydra Bunker and rarely in the Storm Bunker (10% chance). Open carry is fine where Im at. Id use either! Also, I question how much influence the logistics command had over this conclusion. That changed for me Dec of 2017. One week later the detective in charge advised me that papa lived, walked out of the hospital and back to Mexico. Q-do you think your mind will change about +P in a 45 cal? WebBlack Talon is a brand of hollow-point pistol and rifle ammunition introduced in 1991 by Winchester, primarily intended for law enforcement and personal defense use.Black Talon rounds were known for the unique construction of the bullet and its sharp petal shape after expansion following impact with tissue or other wet media. Its a High Point .40S&W. For those that think their their 45 is best, Ill shoot my 9mm and for those that think their 9mm is best, Ill shoot my 45. That said today I only carry my 5th gen Glock 19. Im in the process to actually buy one. I am a colt Gvt. Much of the difference is With bigger bullets, you will make bigger holes., What makes the .223 potentially deadlier than the .22 is its velocity. However I agree with you about a .22 in the right place is more deadly than a 50 in the wrong place. The .45 is a less desirable round because of Air Resistance? Hollow points are designed to rapidly expand after hitting a target, causing as much damage as possible and reducing the chance of overpenetration. What that means is that handgun bullets, as opposed to the devastating wound channels rifle projectiles can cause, are only just poking little holes in people. If it doesnt get deleted for my impatience with thoughtless comments. The debate isnt settled. As might be expected, larger-diameter bullets produce more devastating wound cavities and have a greater likelihood of striking vital organs. Anyone who has seen Clint Eastwoods Dirty Harry movies is familiar with Sergeant Callahans favorite sidekick, his .44 magnum revolver. I like both, so it is a matter of how balanced and comfortable is it when in use ? I however still allowed to carry a 45 and, will as long as I am able to. Really late to the discussion. Browse our site today and place your order with confidence. Hunt! Its certain to elicit a wide variety of opinions and almost as likely to stir up an argument. If I were young I would consider a compact 45, but at 73. But only weighed 140 lbs then. Example; a bb to the eyeball is very effective. Practice drawing the weapon, aiming it, and firing. Just imagine what it might have been like had you had to perform a reload in that situation? I like it and am very comfortable pulling the trigger in as high stress of a situation as training allows. Most of the ballistic testing I have seen comparing the penetration of various bullets and calibers would suggest that generally, a .45ACP and 9mm are both quite comparable as far as penetration is concerned. According to the Marine Corps Times: For Marine special operators, the never-ending debate over whether the 9mm or .45-caliber round is the more powerful bullet has been settled. and departments. The new .50Ae desert eagle has as much recoil as the 1911/M45 which is unrealistc (the .45 has alot less recoil). So banter on gentlemen. You cannot make a man by standing a sheep on its hind legs. I have shot many different calibers. I carry a Sig P226 9mm, or a Springfield 1911 in 45. That was with 6 shot revolvers or 17+1 round Glock 17s. Not everyone can adequately conceal a full-sized Colt 1911. I do believe that whether its a 9 mm or 45 caliber youve got to be accurate with the placement of that round otherwise youre just wasting shots. Penetration of this length and the tissue, blood vessel and organ damage/destruction that follows is vital to circulatory collapse. I know a LEO that works in Mendocino County CA. The best I heard about itcirca Desert Shieldwas that at least the guns werent beaten completely to death, badly maintained by armorers who were phoning it in, and handed out off the rack with worn-out springs and safety levers falling out, like the M1911s had been ever since after Korea. Grinder: I realize this reply is way late in being posted, but I couldnt let that pass. How does air resistance have ANYTHING to do with the terminal ballistics as they relate to penetration? This is pretty interesting BTW https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/defense-against-bears-with-pistols-97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/. And fyi, if you are an expert at shooting a needle into peoples medulla, caliber is irrelevant until the large size becomes combersome. ACP cystic fluid caused growth retardation and an increased obesity index in mice, affected the expression of the Npy, Fgfr2, Rnpc3, Sst, and Pcsk1n genes that regulate growth and energy metabolism in hypothalamic neurons, and enhanced the cellular interaction of AgrpMc3r. 9mm beats .45acp. The 45 1911 did just that. Head and neck shot were down on contact if the hit bone, flesh hit required another shot. The projectile tears through the body causing tissue damage and creating a wound channel. you should read TIFU my boss shot me reddit. He became an FBI agent and served in the FBI for 30 years, retiring in the position of supervisory special agent/chief division counsel. So the moral of the story, use what you like, justify it any way you can, and enjoy the shooting sports, its fun, but if your life is on the line, well just give me a 45 in a 1911 Please. Im 73 yoa. Let the operators in theater chose what they want. R45 Ammo Type: .45 ACP. I have been hand loading my rifle and pistol ammo since 1975. There are other similar handgun calibers, such as the .44 Special and the .45 Colt, and of course, the .357 SIG and 10mm Auto are More rounds the better. It also drops in Air Drops, rarely as Tier Chest loot, or very rarely spawn as Tier World loot. But I think the bigger point to be made is that it would not be wise to make a decision on a pistol or caliber simply because it is bigger, and therefore more manly. It should be made based on the merits and actual performance of the different calibers and/or pistols. So logically the 45 is more effective at stopping Humans, than the 9mm, data from lethal census. 3 rounds all center mass within 2 inches of each other. As a non operator and someone who cant get to the range much an article I read made sense to me as simple as it may seem. Even the Scout Snipers are still using the .308, whereas superior platforms are using .300 Win Mags and .338 Lapuas. Now they have announced they are moving back to the 9mm in the form of the new Gen5 Glock 17M. All this scientific garbage really sounds great, but if you need fifteen rounds to eliminate a threat you got real bad aiming habits. I have had to fire both and knowing that the 9 mm is a lighter piece of lead compared to the 45 ACP it is all about placement then. Can someone comment on this? Practice, practice, practice. I would love to get my hands on the data and map it by cartridge. I think it is more the exception than the rule. This, as with any other type of penetration test, is plagued with inaccuracies. The FBI claims a bullet has no hydrostatic shock capabilities until at least 2200-2400 fps. Thank you Bill ! This type of damage is known as permanent cavity. We report stories that would go untold. The question isnt how many people die from being hit with a certain a round, but rather what do they do immediately after being hit?. After reading your article, I had to 1.) I doubt a .45 would have allowed that.also know a guy who took 10 shots of 9mm at close range in a robbery and survived and is healthy and surfs, shooter must have had terrible aim. It scares the hell out of me to think I might have had to use a 9 mm. 45 muzzle velocity is 500 feet per second and the 9mil is 1500 fps. You're free to republish or share any of our articles (either in part or in full), which are licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License. The USMC changed to 9mm since female Marines had trouble with recoil and were not qualifying at same rate as males. If the first bullet ricochets off the windshield, the succeeding rounds will make it through. Ricochet off. This makes rifle rounds significantly more damaging than their handgun counterparts. I still prefer the .45. Witch in reality are only good enough to fight yourself to a long gun I have 2 Henry levers that shoot the same .357 having 3 weapons. In the technical language of ballistics engineers, the standard unit of measurement for a bullets mass is grains of metal, and depending on the manufacturer, a .7.62 can weigh in at 125 grains. I dont have a dog in that race but it is important to give proper information, not just anything that will satisfy your viewpoint no matter how erroneous. Patrick explains in his treatise that, A bullet simply cannot knock a man down. Keep in mind that fragmentation does sometimes occur, however, it cannot be relied upon. They will simply leave their buddy there to die (and hopefully be able to take one of us with him). Sudden, immediate and even instant death. There was no blood on the floor below him. While the classic .45 ACP round is large, its also relatively slow, with an average velocity of 850-900 FPS for most types of ammo. At least to the U.S. Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command (MARSOC), there is no longer a question. False. Americans have this impression, I think, that comes from watching too many old movies, that a bullet fired from a handgun is supposed to flip the bad guys ten feet into the air, if not disintegrate them altogether and leave a smoking pair of haji sandals on the pavement where they were. Sawed-off Ammo Type: 12 gauge. In that encounter, Sgt Gramins shot the suspect 14 times, any one of 6 of those would have almost certainly been fatal wounds. .45 ACP FMJ doesnt normally make bad people flop to the ground instantaneously unless it hits the brain or spinewhich is probably what happened, given his skills. My feeling is that the gun for you will be as individual as you are. there again I drive a 502 Gasser for pleasure. My neighbor saw that the guy was afraid of the thing and couldnt get back on target after the 1st shot due to the recoil and his flinching with every shot. He is the current USPSA Carry Optics Colorado State Champion and most recently won 3rd place in Master Class at the 2022 USPSA Carry Optics National Championship. If I am just going to the range with my son, I prefer the .45. Wondering if these Marine special operators are not only allowed but required to carry exclusively the 15-round Glock 19, why not the slightly larger and higher capacity Glock 17? Guy KEPT COMING and managed to shoot back twice. thats a monster, 67 about 260 and has hands as big as a base ball mitt, when he carries concealed, he goes with a Glock 43 which looks like a toy in his very large hands. The 9mm travels a great deal faster than the .45, with average muzzle velocity averaging between 1100-1200 FPS. Thats the secret. There were no exit wounds. Scalise, a Republican from Louisiana whose condition has been upgraded to serious, suffered broken bones, ruptured blood vessels, and shredded internal organs. The primary result of permanent cavity damage is profuse bleeding. So they fudge the data. The smaller size of the 9mm also allows for more rounds per magazine, as well as lighter weapons. Police usually shoot from a distance. I am old school. But with the way things are going today I decided it was time, so I just bought S&W M&P 9 Shield. The absolute best thing that anybody can do, find a pistol that suits you that you like, get a high capacity round, and train yourself in situational awareness so you dont have to worry about shooting somebody on accident. I carry a 9mm myself, and train to rapid fire. The larger a projectiles surface area, the greater its ability to transfer its energy to the target, instead of simply penetrating straight through. The one he found had the best chance was the .357 magnum. Looks like a Chinese-made toy gun. Because you are making a decision based on the fact that something (9mm) didnt work. Obama wants us dead. I know the argument for +P with lighter bullets, but I settled on these because they meet my two most important criteria for defensive ammo penetration and accuracy. I do not argue with this decision; however, I believe agents who can control the larger weapons/bullets without a problem should have the choice to carry weapons with the larger bullets. Think of hitting a person in the chest with a broom handle, then picture striking the same spot with a 5 lb. I am aware of the ballistics of both rounds, and am a handloader. If these shootings have something in common, it is each and every one is different. Nobody I know whos been in the service liked the M9. Of course, smoothly drawing a handgun leads directly to another subject: which holster is best for those concerned with personal protection? The only other way to end an adversarys life-threatening action is through circulatory collapse. One of the reasons for the 45 why soldiers love the 45 has to do with the bullet itself tumbling once it hits flesh. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); 2023 Concealed Carry Inc. All Rights Reserved. He also competes in USPSA and 3-gun competitions including numerous top-10 finishes at major matches and championships. To each his own. Durys Gun Shop has served San Antonio and the South Texas region for half a century. I meanwtf? One of the best ammo in the market right now is Hornady Critical Dury which is 135 gr. You are up close and personal with this guy. The amount of energy deposited in the body by a bullet is approximately equivalent to being hit with a baseball.. I think its preference and if you can conceal it. FN DUH! One hit with any caliber has more stopping power than 100 misses with any caliber, type bullet or inherent accuracy. Ask deerhunters. In his 1989 treatise, Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness, Supervisory Special Agent Urey Patrick explained that the goal of an officer in a life-threatening shooting incident is to incapacitate the adversary as quickly as possible. Laboratory studies of fish have found plastics can cause harm to reproductive systems and stress the liver. For me, that is the Sig p226 9mm. I checked him out, and he's legit as far as that title is concerned and where he works. Another, was a 300lb black bear. Fragmentation cannot reliably be counted upon with handgun wounds because of the comparatively low velocity of handgun rounds. JavaScript is disabled. To ensure fragmentation would be to make a round so fragile that it would virtually eliminate penetratration. For me I have a 9mm that is concealable as well as my AR15 223 and like some of the others on here I would rather us my 15. In my book Lethal Force and the Objectively Reasonable Officer, I point out that after the FBI shootout in Miami, the FBI Firearms Training Unit, under the leadership of Unit Chief John Hall, tested 9mm, 10mm and .45 caliber rounds. WebIn real life the tissue damage of the .45 compared to the 9mm is much more and ingame atm the difference is minimal. interacts online and researches product purchases Hence poor shot placement, causing a miss or worse the poor animal suffering a slow painful unnecessary death. Yes, I will agree that air resistance is constantly at work against a bullet, thereby slowing it down as it travels toward its intended target. At 8yoa my dad taught me to shoot with a 1911. However, there are two factors virtually everyone agrees on: 1. The comparisons that I have seen conducted under those conditions seem to be pretty equal. Mine is easily concealable, accurate and has never failed to function. Died instantly. I just bought a S&W M&P 9 Shield. Anything else is a simple failure to prepare. I believe you are in some way getting a kick back from someone, wanting to push the idea that the 9mm is more affective than the 45. Depends. If you throw it at someone, not so much. If its fired from a Thompson Submachine gun, its almost guaranteed to be lethal. G27 with the 10 for EDC and G22 with 22 count mag for inside the house, 40 doesnt seem to have that much more pop than 9mm to me, and i have relatively small hands. All studies are greatly flawed and there is no serious pursuit of better studies due to the enormous difficulty, if not impossibility, of scientifically analyzing real-life shooting incidents. .. maybe for some people the 45 is too much power,. And anyways I own a Kimber Colt 45 1911 with a muzzle breaker on it steel slide aluminum from and honey comb grips, I also own for my conceal Walther Q4 with tactical barrel. I am a classic ). Work scenarios out in your head before they happen. 158 gr 0.38" Special P and 0.357" Magnum semi-jacketed bullets will penetrate both sides of a human skull. Its actually much more simple than most would like to think. Shorter barrels or longer range of initial impact will likewise decrease the possibility of expansion. The paramedics said he probably would not live. As I have read your comments and, also read many debates including what science says. I own one of each 9mil Ruger,Capacity 17 rounds,CZ 45 10 rounds.For stopping power at close range ,I prefer the 45.It is harder to conceal because of its size and weight.The Ruger 9 mil is easier to carry concealed,And a whole lot lighter.Both are comfortable to shoot,to me.A 45 is not for everyone.If you carry concealed the weapon of chose is what you are comfortable with.Handling and performance,depends on the owner.The Military has been changing weapons since day one.I suppose it usually comes down who can supply what the military wants and how much they cost.I personally have handled the Glock 17 and the 19 and dont care for them.I prefer the Ruger or the CZ. A 50-60gr 9mm bullet that obtains 2000 fps. But what I am struggling to understand is some of the ludicrous logic coming fromvarious sides of the issue. Mabe you are just faster and things work out like the movies. 3 more replies -8w7- 13 hr. Factors like these led to the military adopting the Colt .45 ACP pistol as its standard sidearm in 1911. In a military that accepts all genders and has lowered its physical fitness standards, Its not surprising that the 9mm was selected. Ammunition can really change performance. Matthew McConaughey tells the story of those killed in Uvalde in emotional plea for action on guns. career to carry a Glock 9mm. Greater tissue displacement is likely to lead to more blood loss. Im no expert but i know how it feels to be in a shoot out, first of all when it goes down you better have some kind of firearm i dont care if its a P shooter, 2nd the person will be placed in a situation where they will have to make a business decision when here a pop coming from you. It appears now we have had to Dumb Down our .45cal. My department stopped using them in 45 cal because there were enough malfunction to stop. May everyone who reads this have a Blessed Day! As long as YOU are comfortable with the choice, then Im happy for you! Have fun be safe and shoot often for sport and recreation and maybe someday to save your life and loved ones! In each of the three most common law enforcement handgun calibers (9mm Luger, .40 S&W, .45 Auto), there are some projectiles that have a high likelihood of success for officers (i.e., all three are very effective). WebAnswer (1 of 16): It does vary, but most of the time a 5.56mm rifle cartridge will have much more destructive potential than a .45 caliber pistol load does. As mentioned in the article, the terminal ballistics of the modern 9mm is virtually the same as the .40S&W or the older .45ACP round but that is with modern 9mm JHP ammo. We do, however, have reliable information from labs with regard to how much tissue rounds destroy. for all the same reasons. Riley has trained extensively under instructors such as: Rob Leatham, Mike Seeklander, Tim Herron, Scott Jedlinski, Matt Little, Kyle Lamb, Dave Spaulding, Jeff Gonzales, Bill Blowers, Chuck Pressburg, and others, amassing many hundreds of hours of formal shooting and tactics training. So if my pill hit my target in a less than optimal body section with ball ammo, Ill opt for the bigger ball every time. Because of the dynamic and chaotic nature of officer-involved shootings, officers are trained to shoot at center mass of an assailants torso from whatever side/angle of the torso that presents itself. Sign up for new product alerts, company updates, and more! Small grip,,Low recoil,,, easy conceability One size does Not fit all. For two decades, MARSOC operators have been allowed to carry custom-built Colt 1911s chambered in .45ACP. I imagine humans are the same. I was in the military and was law enforcement. But the major difference is that you would have been 2 rounds away from having to reload as compared to 6 rounds in the case of a Glock 17. Both are great bullets, but not really comparable. Do your thing, your responsible for your actions! I do like the capacity of the 9mm for in town carry and lighter weight than my Govt model 45s. I like all of them. Awareness of the injury (which often registers before pain), fear of death or greater injury, preconceived notions of what people do when theyre shot, as well as a simple desire to give up can all play a factor in psychologically incapacitating an attacker. This is exactly what I said above. Ive never liked Glock its sure a well made gun but definitely NOT the best gun Ive shot. .223 Rem in 5.56 NATO is OK. Slow-motion videos of ballistics tests clearly illustrate this difference. I am former law enforcement from Florida, depending on the situation I actually carry both my Ruger American 9 mm and the Ruger American 45 caliber ACP oh, not at the same time lol. And it is acceptable to me that they made at least some of their determination based on the need to accommodate smaller hands. Tissue disruption caused by a handgun bullet is limited to two mechanisms: There are two places that we know will incapacitate a man every time they are hit: the brain and the upper spinal column. He is the author of two published books on deadly force and an upcoming book on supervisory and municipal liability in law enforcement. The expansive quality of these rounds creates larger permanent cavities. Back then we all agreed the larger rounds had better stopping power. Heating effects, occurring mostly around 2.45 GHz (which is the frequency used in microwave ovens) Ionizing effects, which can damage human body and cells; Here is a picture of how the radiowaves penetrate the human body according to the frequency. Battlestar Galactica. When a lot of agencies began switching to 9mm from .45 ACP and other heavier calibers, something became very apparent: the FMJ 9mm at high velocity tended You would think he would know a thing or two about firearms and ballistics with a title like that. Basically what I'm saying is the .50 is almost the same size as .45 and the tissue damage is near the same. The 45 ACP is my choice of a Heavy Hitter. It is extremely difficult to shoot accurately under such pressure. Rookie year. Thats because the 7.62 is almost twice as massive as a .223. What it really boils down to is budget, not protection. As blood moves through the body, it picks up extra fluid, chemicals and waste. This doesnt factor shot placement. So any caliber is better than none. You need to be a little more specific. .45 caliber merely refers to the diameter of the bullet. There are a large variety of cartridges that fire b sledgehammer. Train, train train and when your done. WebIn a perforating wound, the bullet creates an exit wound as it escapes the body.

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